Screw PSB, we are taking about Snell, DOT & ECE R 22-05.

[ahcaibiker]

Discuss anything you know or interest you about helmet destructive testing.

[ahcaibiker]

I've been doing some research online about the HJC R-PHA 10.

 

In the American market it is known as RPS-10, having the latest and most stringent destructive testing certification, 2010 snell certified.

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/...-spies-replica

 

In the UK and Singapore, which MW i believe imports the R-PHA 10 from UK/Europe. It is ECE R 22-05 certified. apparently this batch of helmet is not 2010 snell certified...

 

i came across this website on snell certification.

http://www.smf.org/rst.html

 

batch test, meaning testing by batch. in this case, the American version RPS-10 has undergone 2010 snell destructive testing, passed the test and received certification.

 

The UK version R-PHA 10 which apparently MW imports them from is not send for 2010 snell destructive testing therfore not having the 2010 snell certification. The R-PHA 10 at MW only has the ECE R 22-05 and not 2010 snell certification.

 

If the helmets were made in Korea and came out from the same manufacturing plant, am i correct to say the R-PHA 10 batch that did not undergo 2010 snell destructive test can be considered as 2010 snell certified like the RPS-10 batch that did undergo 2010 snell certification?

 

like to hear views from people who knows something about helmet destructive testing and their procedures. Pls discuss positively and courteously.

[KeraKing]

in uk theres sumthing called SHARP, its some kinda helemet test as well.

 

Anyway reading from magazines, they claim different test only test different safety aspects.

 

What about psb? How do they test and helmets which can brake faces and heads??

[KeraKing]

in uk theres sumthing called SHARP, its some kinda helemet test as well.

 

Anyway reading from magazines, they claim different test only test different safety aspects.

 

What about psb? What equipment to they use??

[mechwira]

want to share the following article. lengthy but very good for those interested about dot and snell certifications.

 

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/index.html

 

the article discusses in great detail the DOT vs SNELL controversy, and then gets some helmets for testing to see how relevant the 'safety badges' are. the article does not conclude whether DOT or SNELL is superior, but leaves the issue open for the reader to make his own judgement. my summary of important points:

 

1) SNELL tests produce 'hard' helmets while DOT tests produce 'soft' helmets. which one is better depends on who you're hearing from.

 

2) all helmets they tested which were either DOT or SNELL certified definitely aced their impact tests, regardless of brand or price.

 

3) a cheaper helmet with no DOT or SNELL does NOT necessarily perform poorly compared to pricier DOT/SNELL. the article also insinuate that helmet manufacturers, especially new entrants to the market, deliberately chase SNELL for no other reason than to give marketing credibility to their helmets, or to mark up the price.

 

 

 

I've made up my own mind about the safety standards issue.

 

1) I will still buy only helmets which are DOT/SNELL certified. if i pick up a cheaper non DOT/SNELL helmet, its true it might perform just as well as pricier DOT/SNELL, but how can i be sure? On the other hand, a DOT/SNELL badge is confirmation that the helmet is as safe as i can possibly get. that confirmation is worth the extra cash even if its just a marketing or pricing gimmick.

 

2) DOT vs SNELL to me is a moot point. SNELL is a secondary test. most, if not all, the SNELL helmets i've seen already come with DOT. so if my helmet has both DOT and SNELL, why bother which badge is better.

 

3) my problem with DOT is not that it is 'better' or 'worse' test compared to SNELL. my problem is that DOT tests are conducted by the manufacturers themselves. they do the tests themselves and then just give the US DOT department the documentation and they can carry the DOT badge. SNELL on the other hand is an independent non-profit organization. the manufacturer must give SNELL a quantity of their helmets, non-returnable and free-of-charge, for testing. if the tests were the same, which badge would you trust? thats why i rather have a helmet with SNELL and DOT rather than only DOT.

 

4) generally it reinforces my belief that i dont have to spend in excess of 600 bucks for a shoei or arai for a 'safe' helmet, provided the less pricey helmet i pick up is DOT/SNELL certified. again, i dont doubt the quality of shoei or arai, nor will argue whether they're worth the amount they're asking for. probably the extra cash is for things such as lightweight, comfort, ventilation, features, aesthetics, non-safety related longevity, etc. which i also agree shd not be taken lightly because a more comfortable helmet makes you a safer rider coz less fatigued thus more alert. but in an outright crash, my cheaper DOT/SNELL HJC or RJays will probably perform just as well.

[mechwira]

 

In the UK and Singapore, which MW i believe imports the R-PHA 10 from UK/Europe. It is ECE R 22-05 certified. apparently this batch of helmet is not 2010 snell certified...

 

batch test, meaning testing by batch. in this case, the American version RPS-10 has undergone 2010 snell destructive testing, passed the test and received certification.

 

The UK version R-PHA 10 which apparently MW imports them from is not send for 2010 snell destructive testing therfore not having the 2010 snell certification. The R-PHA 10 at MW only has the ECE R 22-05 and not 2010 snell certification.

 

If the helmets were made in Korea and came out from the same manufacturing plant, am i correct to say the R-PHA 10 batch that did not undergo 2010 snell destructive test can be considered as 2010 snell certified like the RPS-10 batch that did undergo 2010 snell certification?

 

 

I cannot confirm the accuracy of my info.

 

i do know for a fact that some manufacturers make identical helmets but with different shell composites and/or impact liner materials for different markets, because their helmets cant always pass DOT and SNELL and ECE all simultaneously. so for example a model sold in US with DOT and SNELL might be made with different materials when sold in europe in order to pass the 'softer' ECE tests.

 

This might be why for example the HJC FG series is sold in europe but when sold in US, they're labelled as FS eries. The FG-15 we have is from europe, but is identical to the FS-15 sold in US. thankfully the FG-15 is indeed listed as SNELL. but then the europe CL-ST from europe is marketed as CL-SP in US, and SNELL only lists the CL-SP as certified.

 

what i suspect is that SNELL will not allow the same model name to be used for a certified helmet if the design and especially materials is the slightest bit different. i believe thats why they are labelled differently. of coz if they're not SNELL to begin with, then anything goes. so if SNELL says R-PHA 10 is certified, then all HJC R-PHA 10 are manufactured identical regardless of factory.

[ahcaibiker]

in uk theres sumthing called SHARP, its some kinda helemet test as well.

 

Anyway reading from magazines, they claim different test only test different safety aspects.

 

What about psb? What equipment to they use??

 

PSB? i don really give a damn thing about PSB although we are taught by the gahment the only legal helmets to wear otr are PSB approved.

 

Apparently, when helmets are sent for snell of dot testing in the america or europe market. the retail shop selling helmets does not bear the cost, it's either purchased by snell or dot or the cost is absorbed by the helmet manufaturer (Shoei, Arai, AGV, HJC, etc)

 

Not for PSB approval, the cost will be on the retail shop if it is to send helmets for destructive testing... therefore i come to the conclusion that the PSB sticker is another one of the gahment's pro $$$ policy...

 

If snell and dot is well recognized worldwide for helmet safety ratings, i can never understand why the local gahment insists on having PSB approval...

 

PSB having more stringent helmet destructive testing than snell, dot or ece r 22-05? i really doubt so. If they really care about motorcyclists and decreasing the accident statistics. They should have schemes or policy in place to aid motorcyclists in getting proper riding gear at a more affordable costs and not having another policy with the aim to line their pockets with more $$$.

 

Due to local shops making a loss by sending it's helmets for destructive testing. they choose to cut losses either by not sending it for destructive testing or jacking the price up for a PSB approved helmet. you can verify this by going to CL or R*gi*a and compare prices for a similar make and model (e.g: Shoei X-11) between a PSB approved and a non-PSB approved one.

Edited September 20, 2010 by ahcaibiker

[ahcaibiker]

-double post-

Edited September 20, 2010 by ahcaibiker
duplicate post

[ahcaibiker]

I cannot confirm the accuracy of my info.

 

i do know for a fact that some manufacturers make identical helmets but with different shell composites and/or impact liner materials for different markets, because their helmets cant always pass DOT and SNELL and ECE all simultaneously. so for example a model sold in US with DOT and SNELL might be made with different materials when sold in europe in order to pass the 'softer' ECE tests.

 

This might be why for example the HJC FG series is sold in europe but when sold in US, they're labelled as FS eries. The FG-15 we have is from europe, but is identical to the FS-15 sold in US. thankfully the FG-15 is indeed listed as SNELL. but then the europe CL-ST from europe is marketed as CL-SP in US, and SNELL only lists the CL-SP as certified.

 

what i suspect is that SNELL will not allow the same model name to be used for a certified helmet if the design and especially materials is the slightest bit different. i believe thats why they are labelled differently. of coz if they're not SNELL to begin with, then anything goes. so if SNELL says R-PHA 10 is certified, then all HJC R-PHA 10 are manufactured identical regardless of factory.

 

I've checked the R-PHA 10 at MW personally which i believe they imported from Europe, they do not have SNELL certification.

 

In the America market, the R-PHA 10 is known as RPS-10 which are SNELL 2010 certified.

 

The question here is, can the R-PHA 10 be considered as SNELL 2010 certifed?

 

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/hjc-rps-10-helmet-ben-spies-replica

 

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/hjc-rps-10-motorcycle-helmet-development

Edited September 20, 2010 by ahcaibiker

[World Misanthropy]

Haha i like this thread! Yeah! Screw PSB!

[Demon]

Due to local shops making a loss by sending it's helmets for destructive testing. they choose to cut losses either by not sending it for destructive testing or jacking the price up for a PSB approved helmet. you can verify this by going to CL or R*gi*a and compare prices for a similar make and model (e.g: Shoei X-11) between a PSB approved and a non-PSB approved one.

 

As far as SHOEi is concern, they have make it clear that all their helmets sold in Singapore through their sole distributor must be PSB certified. PSB requires 2 helmets for destructive testing for every batch, and the cost impact on the retail price is negligible.

 

Although I questioned the usefulness of the PSB certification, I still prefer my helmets to be legal so I have one less worry off my mind.

[Tachnicolour]

I cannot confirm the accuracy of my info.

 

i do know for a fact that some manufacturers make identical helmets but with different shell composites and/or impact liner materials for different markets, because their helmets cant always pass DOT and SNELL and ECE all simultaneously. so for example a model sold in US with DOT and SNELL might be made with different materials when sold in europe in order to pass the 'softer' ECE tests.

 

This might be why for example the HJC FG series is sold in europe but when sold in US, they're labelled as FS eries. The FG-15 we have is from europe, but is identical to the FS-15 sold in US. thankfully the FG-15 is indeed listed as SNELL. but then the europe CL-ST from europe is marketed as CL-SP in US, and SNELL only lists the CL-SP as certified.

 

what i suspect is that SNELL will not allow the same model name to be used for a certified helmet if the design and especially materials is the slightest bit different. i believe thats why they are labelled differently. of coz if they're not SNELL to begin with, then anything goes. so if SNELL says R-PHA 10 is certified, then all HJC R-PHA 10 are manufactured identical regardless of factory.

 

the FG15 is snell? I only recall seeing ECE and TUV badges on mine. pity it's not the tuv-psb, though i don't really give a damn about that. in any case, my take on how 2 batches of the same model (assuming exactly the same material and manufacturing line) are not certified for each market is that batch testing is required by ece and snell has the right to do random sampling tests. To sell in the US, don't need to send for ECE testing, save costs on batch tested helmets, anyway, they're gonna be sold in the US only. For EU and 50 other nations which recognise ECE, send for batch testing and then no point sending random helmets to SNELL from that batch to test, since it won't be sold in the US. All dollars and cents imho.

 

Also, as mentioned, there may be slight material changes to the production lines for each batch to meet either ECE or SNELL standards.

 

it has been mentioned though, that even for one particular model with the same formulation and build, generally the larger sizes are capable of passing BOTH ECE and SNELL, but the smaller sizes have difficulty doing so.

 

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/snell-2010-standard.htm

 

in any case, in the article above, is mentioned the M2010 SNELL standard which is supposed to also meet ECE requirements.

 

to sum it up, M2010 standards have taken ECE into mind, e.g., ECE certified helmet can get M2010 approval as well.

 

another discussion on ECE vs SNELL vs local(oz in this case) standards.

http://www.ksrc-au.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29984&start=0

 

edit : added link

 

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103658

good read up on different testing methods and how they're conducted.

 

summary : pre-release of model

SNELL = test 5/6 helmets, if fail, require adjustement to meet requirements.

Batch testing = certain number for different batch size, fail = reject ENTIRE batch

 

after-release

SNELL = randomly test samples purchased off the shelf, if fail, require review with manufacturer

Edited September 20, 2010 by Tachnicolour

[Tachnicolour]

PSB? i don really give a damn thing about PSB although we are taught by the gahment the only legal helmets to wear otr are PSB approved.

 

Apparently, when helmets are sent for snell of dot testing in the america or europe market. the retail shop selling helmets does not bear the cost, it's either purchased by snell or dot or the cost is absorbed by the helmet manufaturer (Shoei, Arai, AGV, HJC, etc)

 

Not for PSB approval, the cost will be on the retail shop if it is to send helmets for destructive testing... therefore i come to the conclusion that the PSB sticker is another one of the gahment's pro $$$ policy...

 

If snell and dot is well recognized worldwide for helmet safety ratings, i can never understand why the local gahment insists on having PSB approval...

 

PSB having more stringent helmet destructive testing than snell, dot or ece r 22-05? i really doubt so. If they really care about motorcyclists and decreasing the accident statistics. They should have schemes or policy in place to aid motorcyclists in getting proper riding gear at a more affordable costs and not having another policy with the aim to line their pockets with more $$$.

 

Due to local shops making a loss by sending it's helmets for destructive testing. they choose to cut losses either by not sending it for destructive testing or jacking the price up for a PSB approved helmet. you can verify this by going to CL or R*gi*a and compare prices for a similar make and model (e.g: Shoei X-11) between a PSB approved and a non-PSB approved one.

yes, the other standards may be more stringent than PSB. my take on why the PSB testing is required is because of "kiasu/see-ness".

+what if helmet damaged during shipping after batch testing approved.

+what if unscrupulous non-original manufacturers sell *ahem* counterfeited helmets with cheong ECE/SNELL stickers.

+how to monitor all these standards.

 

so, what to do? take matters into their own hands lor, they certifiy can liao, no need to rely on other standards. and even if overseas standards are better, singaporean mentality "how to guarantee it's better?".

I've checked the R-PHA 10 at MW personally which i believe they imported from Europe, they do not have SNELL certification.

 

In the America market, the R-PHA 10 is known as RPS-10 which are SNELL 2010 certified.

 

The question here is, can the R-PHA 10 be considered as SNELL 2010 certifed?

 

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/hjc-rps-10-helmet-ben-spies-replica

 

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/hjc-rps-10-motorcycle-helmet-development

my opinion is that no, not considered snell certified unless snell has had oppurtunity to do ongoing random sampling on that particular specific batch.

[vyruz]

Although I questioned the usefulness of the PSB certification, I still prefer my helmets to be legal so I have one less worry off my mind.

 

My thoughts exactly!

[mechwira]

the FG15 is snell? I only recall seeing ECE and TUV badges on mine.

 

yes the FG-15 is SNELL certified. the sticker is not found on the helmet itself, but the FG-15 model is indeed listed under their M2005 standard, alongside the 'american version' FS-15. check out their website's helmet listings.

 

but like i also pointed out, while the 'american version' CL-SP is listed under SNELL's M2005 and M2010, the 'european version' CL-ST is not there at all.

 

so why doesn our local FG-15 have the SNELL sticker? i donno. maybe because since its for euro market HJC doesn bother to paste sticker. maybe ours is the same SNELL-certified helmet but specifically not from the batch that was tested. however, i dun believe that we have a different 'FG-15', altho i do believe the 'FG-15' and 'FS-15' are identical externally but different material internally.

 

 

In the America market, the R-PHA 10 is known as RPS-10 which are SNELL 2010 certified.

 

The question here is, can the R-PHA 10 be considered as SNELL 2010 certifed?

 

oh right, i just saw it. the R-PHA 10 is not listed, but a model named 'RPS-10' is listed under M2010. in this case, i do not believe them to have the same material. i'm not saying its unsafe of coz, i'm just saying i dont think its the same SNELL certified helmet.

[mechwira]

heres wat i think about PSB sticker:

 

when was the last time you heard of a biker being booked by TP for wearing a non-PSB helmet? or that he couldn claim insurance because his helmet wasn PSB?

 

frankly the last time i heard was like 6 to 8 years ago, when the whole concept of a full face helmet was new, and TP themselves actually felt that a full face was not safe. i occasionally heard of forumers back then booked by TP for full face without PSB. i haven heard any since, and i myself have been on road blocks with my FF without being checked for PSB. its because TP themselves, especially the mata themselves who are also bikers, probably now fully appreciate the value of a full face. but they wont say it out, or make it official, for consistency of enforcement obviously.

 

that doesn mean we should do away with PSB. all the $50 to $80 open face cant be SNELL or DOT. but lets be realistic, as much as we dont consider them safe, they'll still be worn by the older uncles and young riders on a budget. having PSB test these helmets is at least better than nothing.

 

i suggest a compromise: SNELL, ECE and DOT shd be accepted as legal alongside PSB.

[kaiq]

Just a note. For Snell certified helmet sometimes their list of helmets on their website is not up to date - if you dun see a certain helmet you'll need to confirm again.

 

This is usually the case when a helmet maker website states Snell ceritifed but Snell website didn't list it.

[dotless]

seriously,what is PSB for? is it a way for the gahment to earn money?

[mr grumpy]

screw PSB! screw PSB!

[NoFishesAllowed]

wads ece standards of approval?

wad approval does hjc clst have?

[tanglewire]

screw them

[mechwira]

wads ece standards of approval?

wad approval does hjc clst have?

 

ece 22.05 is essentially the psb sticker for europe, like DOT is the psb sticker for USA. in europe as well some other countries outside europe, all motorcycle helmets must be certified to ece 22.05 for legal use, same as DOT for usa. Snell is not compulsory in any country but is regarded by many to be the strictest safety test conducted on helmets.

 

the FIM makes it compulsory for racers competing in their competitions such as MotoGP to wear helmets certified to either ECE, Snell or JIS (Japanese safety standard). that means any helmet with any one of these badges is considered by FIM to be sufficiently safe for top-level competition racing. i dont know why they do not include DOT even though is generally regarded as equivalent standard to ECE.

 

the CL-ST has ece 22.05

[NoFishesAllowed]

ece 22.05 is essentially the psb sticker for europe, like DOT is the psb sticker for USA. in europe as well some other countries outside europe, all motorcycle helmets must be certified to ece 22.05 for legal use, same as DOT for usa. Snell is not compulsory in any country but is regarded by many to be the strictest safety test conducted on helmets.

 

the FIM makes it compulsory for racers competing in their competitions such as MotoGP to wear helmets certified to either ECE, Snell or JIS (Japanese safety standard). that means any helmet with any one of these badges is considered by FIM to be sufficiently safe for top-level competition racing. i dont know why they do not include DOT even though is generally regarded as equivalent standard to ECE.

 

the CL-ST has ece 22.05

 

tyty bro:)

[mild_slevin]

Hmmm I dun understand why and what's wrong with PSB certification, seems like each individual countries has it own certification board. So long the test meets or exceed international standards consumer can use with a piece of mind.

[mechwira]

Hmmm I dun understand why and what's wrong with PSB certification, seems like each individual countries has it own certification board. So long the test meets or exceed international standards consumer can use with a piece of mind.

 

'ece' is an 'international' standard in the sense that countries within and outside of europe accept it.

 

PSB's tests are nowhere near such standards as DOT, Snell or ECE. they neither meet nor exceed 'international' standards. they are the barest minimum of tests. i support psb only and only in the sense that our 'uncles on bikes' at least would wear a helmet with 'some' standard rather than wear sub-standard helmets with no other purpose than a decoration on the head to prevent being stopped by tp.